Episode 15: Growing Well
with Keith Eigel & Sara Musgrove

What are the best practices of those who have grown well?  Keith and Sara unpack the themes that came up over and over again in their conversations with amazing leaders. All of us can employ these practices to accelerate growth to have the influence we desire in areas that matter to us. We just have to learn to lean in.

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Episode transcript

Keith: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Growing As Grown-Ups podcast. I have with me today Sara Musgrove and, Sara, we are at a transition point in what we're doing a little bit because we have interviewed a little more than a dozen great leaders, people that we've really admired kind of the way that they have handled their lives and kind of growing up as grownups, especially in the context of leadership. And we are going to kind of shift gears going forward but we wanted to have a couple of episodes to kind of close and tie as tight of a bow as we could on what we think is important about what makes these leaders great, because if it wasn't something that we could do, we wouldn't have brought them on. I mean, it's not just to admire what they do, it's to really dig in and say, "Well, what is it about what they've done that we can do to realize a greater level of effectiveness and happiness and satisfaction and all of these things in our lives?" So I'm excited that we're going to have a chance to just talk about behind the scenes a little bit about what we do and what we see. So good morning.

 Sara: Good morning. Yeah, it's been such a great start to this podcast. We've heard so many incredible stories and I think for people that have been tracking with us through the first dozen episodes, they will have started noticing themes and sometimes we pointed them out at the end of our interview or at the end of the podcast in the recap and called attention to those and I love that they just naturally shared so many of the best practices that we have learned over the years. And we didn't tell them what to say, we didn't say, "OK, make sure you talk about developmental relationships," it's just a part of what they've grown and so, you know, what we tend to talk about here is that there are best in class people who grow developmentally, the people who just naturally know how to lean in and grow and then there's average people and you and I tend to fall in average.    

Keith: And for that reason, there's nothing wrong with average.  

Sara: I know. Way to be average! But the beauty is that we get to look at those top-of-class people and say, "What are you doing? What are the practices that you're engaging in that I can model and put in practice in my life and accelerate my growth to move further along in the journey earlier in life, instead of just waiting for life to unfold at its natural course," which is what most people who don't understand the principles of growth do. And so our hope for today is to just reflect back on the 12 interviews with these amazing leaders that we have done to highlight some of these best practices and kind of make sure that all of you listeners at home know what you can be doing in order to continue to grow and as we've said in other episodes, we have resources online on our website that we would love for you to engage in. Our free Growth Gap Tool, if you haven't downloaded it yet, please, please, please go get it. We'll talk about it again today, I'm sure. But it really is--captures so many of the principles that underpin growth. We have an online class called Challenge to Change that really is going to walk you through this with extra support, step-by-step, reflections and lessons and assignments, and so we want to make sure, you know of those resources. We'll share at the end the discount code for being a faithful podcast listener. But with that, Keith, why don't you kick us off? Why don't you share with us what's one of the things that you've noted from our podcast guests that you think capture these best practices of growth?  
Keith: I want to say one thing. Before you went into full-blown sales mode--which was awesome, by the way--and folks, we are both uncomfortable sellers, I think of what we do. I can't even--I can't exaggerate. And I'm prone to exaggeration, but I can't even exaggerate the utility of some of these things that we're offering, and so I would encourage you to just take a deeper look, but you said something about the great dozen people and kind of what made them great and what I started thinking about is, do you know we all have people in our lives that we admire? You know, every one of our listeners has people in their lives that they really admire and it's beyond just how much money they made or what position they've achieved. It's like they admire them because the character of who they are. And when we went and found these great leaders that we had familiarity with, they had a series of characteristics about them that were about I mean, we've thrown it into this broad category of "maturity", but they've done some things like they've grown well through hardship, right? They have- they really know who they are independent of what other people are telling them they are and they're grounded in that reality. They're able to see more of the bigger picture that's going on around them and not be sucked into the vortex of circumstances that seem to be sliding sideways. You know, they just--they've got this way of seeing the world that is not easily blown hither and to by the whims of circumstance and my guess is, as our listeners think about the people that they admire the most, didn't I just describe them? I bet I did.    

Sara: Yeah, yeah.  

Keith: Right? So to your, directly to your question, by the way, what stood out to me, maybe--  

Sara: What got our listeners to that point that you just described? We aren't born that way.  

Keith: Yeah, we aren't born that way. I mean, that's the reality. We are not born that way, we have to grow into that and growing into that, excuse me, growing into that is not a matter of just tucking years under our belt, right? It's not just having experience as it's evaluating those experiences in a way that change us. And that just bleeds completely into the thing that stood out to me the most, and I may have a bias toward seeing this because it's what we do for a living, but we didn't interview anybody that couldn't name the challenges that they went through that wound up shaping them and really meaningful ways, right?  And when we talk about those difficulties, we have long said and we mentioned it on many podcasts we have brought up the fact, brought up the reality, brought up the commonality amongst these people that they have grown, not in spite of, but because of the things that they have been through. And whether it was, you know, Stuart--Stuart Rayfield's interview comes to mind in terms of her seizing the constant dripping of challenges, right? Not as much as the big "oh-my-gosh-I-can't-believe-you-endured-that-challenge," kind of challenge but just the constant dripping of circumstances, which I think is actually more common, it's just that we don't--Go ahead, go ahead.  

Sara: Yeah. On that point, I was just going to say I was talking to someone the other day who's been listening to our podcast and said, you know, the stories of people like Mohamed Massaquoi and Bill Renje and the people that have these huge life changing instances, he's like, "Those are incredible but that's not my story," and I said, "Go listen to Stuart Rayfield's." And, you know, this idea that that we don't have to have the big thing to grow well, right? We all face challenges. It's the frustrations with where you are in life and relationships and all those different things. I mean, it's back to what you said, I guess we both talked about it in that first episode, is our formula for growth: challenge and contradiction over time, times perseverance, leads to accelerated growth. And big challenges, you know, like Mohamed's accident, where he lost his hand is obviously a huge challenge that is going to lead to growth because he persevered through it but with Stuart, it was smaller challenges, but with intentionality and time that led to the growth for her. So I want to make the point that it is--you don't have to have the big things.  

Keith: Yeah, but let's not run away from the big things and when the big things wind up coming our way. The more we have been seizing, utilizing the little things, the more developmentally fit we are to actually endure the big things in ways that lead to a different kind of growth.  

Sara: Absolutely.  

Keith: Right? It has got such a parallel to physical fitness and just, you know, effective exercise is not about putting your musculature in such a strain that you do damage to it. But it is about tearing. It is about doing a little bit of damage in a controlled way and when we can notice and begin to pay attention to the little things in our life that are going on, what we are tapping into are exercises that won't hurt us but will grow us, right? And the foundation of all of our programs, honestly, is that most people are not in crisis, but every time we have 25 or 30 people in a group, I bet we've got a couple of people, right, we've heard the stories, who are in crisis. They're in the middle of losing a loved one or we've had people who have gotten calls during a session day that they've lost a loved one. Right? And it's like the big things come but in those rare instances where that has actually happened to a participant in a program, it is interesting how I think all of them have come back to me at some point and said, you know, this was the right time for me to be in this program because I was ready in a different way than I would have been ready and Sara, we all, I think, get theoretically probably that we've got all these little challenges in our life. The question is how do I--we identify the challenges that can lead to growth? And anything that is bothering us, anything that we don't know what to do with--in other words that we're not making perfect sense of, because if we were making perfect sense of it, it wouldn't even come on our radar screen as a challenge--anytime we are bothered by something somebody says, anytime we can't sleep at night, anytime we read something that it's like, "I don't know if that's true, that's--you know, that's not the way I've always made sense of it," any time we bump into these little things, we have actually bumped into an exercise. That we can kind of ask ourselves some key questions like, "Who do I want to be? What's the story I want to tell? How am I going to make sense of that? What am I going to hold to be true?" All of these things that you and I have talked at so many of our closings of these episodes about asking ourselves questions that demand an inside-out answer, creates that groundedness, creates that maturity, moves us away from being overly influenced by others or circumstances or things that take us down this spiral that we know we don't want to be in, but we find ourselves in.    And that's--Sara, you know, I'm, I don't know, 100 years older than you. Not that bad, it's almost 20, though, right? Almost a couple of decades older than you and you're living at this time in your life; I'm going to just tell them 40 years of age, right? Where you are--  

Sara: Can't believe you said that.  

Keith: Sorry about that, I can't believe I said it either but you're living at this what people--y'all, log on to the YouTube on this and go, "Oh, yes, looks good for 40." I'm getting myself in trouble. You're going to have to edit this out, probably. So, Sara, you're at an age where people who are growing are coming to some of these inside-out conclusions about themselves, right? You're seeing a lot of your friends being in that space.  I have to tell you that I think a third of my friends are still living in a space where they're allowing what's going on around them to define them. Lots of people have grown up in really cool ways, by the way, and I've seen lots of people go through these transitions but the reality is, is that if we've got enough, you know, kind of financial resources and if we've got--our kids are all pretty good, our marriage is kind of happy.  

Sara: If you're smart enough to figure it out.  

Keith: If you're--oh, my gosh, if you're smart enough to figure it out, it's like you kind of get by without growing. You maintain that status quo without really growing and yet when we can lean into these little things--I don't know, I think I probably went off more than you intended, but.  

Sara: No, it's all good and we will our next episode, I'm going to interview you, which will be super fun, because this is your life's work. This is your research and really unpacking what do those transition points look like and what is the map of how we grow and giving people of picture kind of what they're aiming for. But I think, you know, you mentioned earlier the importance of asking yourself questions, right, and a number of our recent guests made that really explicit in their podcast. But, you know my favorite question, I don't know if I've shared it on this podcast, but it's what I ask myself, it's what I ask my friends, it's what I ask my clients when they are facing difficult circumstances and they find themselves wanting to be overly influenced or to blame the circumstances around them or around me. "Ugh! That person is just such an idiot," right? Not that I would ever say that, is to pause and ask yourself the question, "Who do I want to be in the middle of this and, at the end of the day, what's the story that I want told about how I handled myself in this situation?" And just the simplicity of those two questions, "who do I want to be" and "what's the story I want told", I feel like are the questions that make me stop and look at myself and then I have the choice, do I grow through this challenge or do I let the challenge kind of defeat me? And so, you know, for our listeners, just think about those questions. Think about a situation you have going on in life right now and ask yourself those two questions and when you hear somebody that you care about and that you're investing in facing the challenge, asking those questions as well. While you were talking, I looked up something that was in Mohamed Massaquoi's interview, he was episode number two, I remember him talking about this principal from his football training but it was so relevant to what you were saying and it was: "Whatever you're doing in life, do it at the highest level because you never know what's going to be on the other side. So you need to be prepared." And so if you just kind of push aside the little challenges that come at you every day, you're not going to be prepared for the big things and that's what you said and it just reminded me of kind of that athletic training mindset that he brought to the table. So another thing that I have noticed in a lot of our relationships, and we pointed it out early on, was how none of the guests were doing this thing alone.  Everybody had a story about how somebody else in their life came alongside them, spoke truth to them, challenged them, held them accountable, encouraged them and I think it's something that we undervalue in our life is that the people around us can serve as such great developmental fuel and we can do the same for other people. So I should have figured out who said this, maybe it was Kevin Riley in the last episode, but the idea--the importance of getting feedback and that the things that you most need to hear come from the people you least want to hear them from, right?  

Keith: That was Kevin Riley who made that point, yeah.  

Sara: Yeah and how, like, we need to be open to receiving those gifts of feedback of people who are willing to love us enough to speak truth to us, that we need the friends that a lot of our guests share, that they kind of came along and then said, "I'm going to sit with you in the pain, but you're going to have to get up and keep moving. I'm not going to let you kind of zero out your perseverance," in the context of the formula and this idea of developmental relationships that are challenging--that will challenge you to keep growing, that they will hold you accountable to your goals, that they will encourage and cheer you on as you're going, that they will support you in ways of providing opportunities and resources. And I think, you know, I know that because I do this professionally and my coworkers, therefore understand these principles, you know, I'm lucky enough to have this--have these kinds of relationships with you and with other people we work with. But I, you know, have also tried to be intentional with friends of mine and in inviting them into things and telling them what I'm struggling with and saying, "Help hold me accountable, help--you know, feel free. You're always allowed to ask me questions about how I'm doing with something." And my hope is that our listeners have those relationships and if not, are willing to take the step to go out and invite people into that, and I know for some people that's easier than it is for others. Some people are more private, more guarded. You know, but finding one or two trusted people to come alongside you on your journey, that they get to speak into your growth, that you get to speak in their growth, I think is really, really important and we've seen it in our guests that nobody tried to do it alone.  

Keith: Yeah. I mean, Jeff Henderson comes to mind as well as one who just was so intentional about that but I don't think we had a guest, actually, that didn't bring that up.  You know, there is. There's a way I think to make this practical. If it's not easy for you, spending a little bit of time thinking about why it's not easy and if you are less developed, not--that doesn't make you a bad person, right? But if you're more, and what we'll talk about next episode is a little bit more outside-in, a little bit more concerned about what other people think, I think it's harder to develop that kind of relationship with your peers, right?  "Because if I say this, if I let them know this, oh, my gosh, it's a little bit like I'll be found out." Or what if they, you know, whether you're part of a faith community or you have a political affiliation and that is part of your identity or you're part of a, you know, just I mean, it could be a homeowner's association. It could just be the neighborhood you live in. It could be at work. I'm like, "Man, if people knew what I was thinking, they would not like me. If people knew what I was thinking, they would not come to me. If people knew what I was thinking, they wouldn't give me this assignment. They wouldn't be my friend."     All of these things and to just get really pragmatic about this for a minute, if you are in your 30s, if you find yourself resonating with the descriptors that I just gave, right, that I recognize in myself that I'm scared sometimes, I'm fearful, I'm concerned what others will think if I really let them know what I was thinking. Will I be ostracized for that? If you're that person, here's what I would encourage you to do. Find someone who's three decades, four decades older than you because you know what, if you admire them, if they've grown up well, they don't care because they get it, they've been there, they know what it is. They're going to bring the wisdom and insight and safety and authenticity and honesty and all of these things that they'll bring into that equation. And  they can't just be old, they've got to be grownup. They've got to be the kind of people that you probably admire and this does not need to be an everyday phone call. This could be breakfast once a month. This could be something that here's what I'm thinking through. I remember, Sara, that I was in graduate school in my early 30s. There was a professor emeritus which that's a big fancy word, but that means that he had retired, but he was too cool to let go. So he maintained an office in the building and his name was Joe Hammock and truly a level-five, as we mentioned on this podcast. Say just--oh, my gosh, just one of my favorite people that I think I've ever met in my life. And Joe, Dr. Joe Hammock was willing to go to lunch to meet with me once a month. He would take me to the faculty lounge and the cool thing is there's almost no one eats at the faculty lounge. So we always had a table in the corner and I would be able to share things that I was thinking about, not even about the program, just about all aspects of life. And boy, I told Karl Kuhnert this a dozen times, I don't think I've ever mentioned this to you, but he was critical in my life. He was one of the key people and at that point he was probably at least, at least four decades older than me and he never said no to a lunch that I asked him to. Right? But I made a point.  

Sara: That's awesome.  

Keith: Yeah, it's just--and so if you find yourself in that space where you're worried about processing the things that you're processing and because of that, you wound up not processing it with somebody, just trying to leave it alone in your head, that's not good leaning in, that's not effective leaning in. How can you get it out in a way with someone who can help provide perspective in the bigger picture? So that's my encouragement.  

Sara: Yeah, and that's a great point and, you know, one step further for people that don't feel like they have peers that they can talk to or don't have a person like that in their world, finding a coach or a counselor, right? Just somebody, you know, there are resources out there. Something you just said made me think of another big theme that stood out to me and it's the vulnerability and authenticity that we heard from so many of these leaders and the people that you would think that I look at and think, "They're such good leaders, they must know so much more than I do," and yet they admit, "No, I don't know and I have to go in and admit sometimes I don't know what I'm doing," and, you know, a couple of them even said, "If I try to pretend," I think it was Stuart Rayfield, "If I try to pretend otherwise, then I'd be ineffective as a leader." Like, "The willingness to say just because I don't know something doesn't make me not a leader," and it strengthens their credibility, it strengthens their maturity, it gives them the opportunity to keep learning and even thinking about your conversation with Karl leading up to the election--which is one of my favorite episodes, we get a lot of feedback on that—just this idea of the importance of kind of listening and being curious about other people's perspectives and how do we move away from divisions and fractures in us-versus-them requires this humility and curiosity that I think so many younger leaders are scared to embrace. But to be willing to say, "Help me understand, tell me a story. Let me hear your perspective on something. Let me learn from you," I think is great and going back to what you were talking about at the beginning of kind of everybody has a challenge that has shaped them. One thing that--an exercise that we do with our clients, it's a part of our Challenge to Change course is the lifeline exercise and basically, we have people, you know, identify challenges. Well, we don't even tell them at the moment that they're challenges, landmark events in your life and then kind of unpack them. And I think that would be a great exercise for people to get together. It would help form relationships. It would help increase vulnerability is to just get together with somebody and say, "Hey, tell me a story about something that's been influential in shaping who you are," and I think about, you know, the people in my world that have different life experiences than me and the  vulnerability it would take to say, "Hey, I want to understand your." The challenge that would bring as I hear things that are contradictory in my way of understanding the world, you know, especially with all the racial tension right now, the political divide, just the power of openness, curiosity, vulnerability, kind of that all packaged into one, I think is--has a really great opportunity for growth that so many people don't take advantage of.  

Keith: Yeah, so as a really practical step, then again, if you don't--and thank you for bringing this point up, it's so wonderful. One of the ways you can initiate a developmental relationship with somebody, where ultimately you will be able to process the things that you're thinking about, is to actually first help them process the things that they're thinking about, make a safe place, make a safe place for them. Right? Ask them without judgment. Ask them without trying to defend your thinking. What's going on in their life? Tell me more about why you're thinking that, that there's a-- Karl 's episode reminds me of that, that there was this challenge I think that Karl did a good job that we put forward in that interview to go out and just be curious. And I know you love that but I mean, that's like one of your main things is how can we be curious with each other. But Karl, I'm sorry, not Karl --in that interview, just the thing that we talked about is that when we go out and allow someone else to begin to be authentic and not judge them in that way, the chances that you will then be able to be reciprocal in authenticity and really talk about what's going on with you is going to happen.  So it's not like you need to, "Are they safe? Are they safe? Are they safe?" Be safe for them and there will be safety that characterizes that relationship. Thank you. Beautiful.  

Sara: Yeah. I had one other thing, I had made a note of that I wanted to share, but I wanted to give you a chance to throw something out there if you have anything.  

Keith: You know, the thing that I realized happened through the interviews, and I'll try and make this brief, I think. I'm not very good at making stuff brief, have you ever noticed that?  

Sara: Never!  

Keith: Yeah, never. Is that people--the people we invited to be guests through this first series of episodes up until this point are people who grew really well but that's not necessarily something they chose to do, right? I even think about Mohamed, probably our youngest guest, but with a maturity so far beyond his years that when people called me to say, "Oh, my gosh, I listened to that podcast," that was the phrase I kept hearing over and over again, just, "Oh, my gosh, maturity beyond his years," right? Is that the ability to grow effectively to me, the way I've always made the most sense of my averageness in this is that it's like athleticism and we all know with athleticism that some people got it, we don't know why, but they did and I didn't get it at the same level, right? And we are so willing to embrace where we are on the athletic spectrum but I find people are embarrassed to embrace where they are on the developmental spectrum, and yet if this is important to you--and I'm telling folks it should be important to you, all of the research around this. Not only your effectiveness, but your well-being and your satisfaction, just your general happiness in life and, by the way, it's not just your happiness, it's the happiness that you begin to grow in others; when you're developmental you create developmental energy. I don't know, for other people and don't be embarrassed if you're not as far along in the journey as you should be. Just start seizing opportunities and say, "Well, it's not too late to become more developmentally fit now."  

Sara: Yeah.  

Keith: Yeah. So, I mean, that's the other thought that I had, is that we did kind of bring on a whole series of rock stars and we're not all rock stars.  

Sara: Yeah, we're not. I love that and I love just the encouragement of "it's never too late". I mean, we both have been witness to people who kind of had been stuck for a while and the little things weren't helping them and finally, a big thing did come along and they got unstuck and again, our hope for everybody is let's not wait for the big things, let's get that daily practice in so the big things aren't going to rock your world as much, right? Start growing now. That was--  

Keith: We got about 10 minutes left on this episode. Why don't you tell me your last thing. Now, you've got my curiosity piqued.  

Sara: Well, now, after that, it doesn't seem that profound, but it is interesting and relevant to the work that we do is  the influence of personality in everybody's story and some people were very explicit. You know, Christi Gordy knew exactly what her personality type was and how it played in, Kyle Marrero did as well.  

Keith: Right.  

Sara: Mike Lauderdale for sure. But even the people that weren't explicit about it, you and I could tell some elements of that and I think we're big advocates that, you know, there is no magic answer. There's no personality assessment that is going to unlock the mysteries of who you are. They only, you know, I forget the numbers. You know, personality only explains a small percentage of leadership effectiveness but the self-awareness that comes with understanding your personality, of understanding all your preferences for how you interact with the world, I think really helps you on this journey. And I loved the way that you explain it is that early on in our lives, in our careers, our goal is to lean into our strengths, lean into our preferences, kind of become the best version of the way that we're wired, but then there gets to be a point when our influence is increasing, where we recognize that just leaning on those strengths and preferences is no longer sufficient. And it takes acknowledging that, acknowledging the flip side, you know, we've told some stories, I think I brought it up in the first podcast, one element of personality that I have to work really hard on in the flip side of it, is you know, you--is I'm a super-organizer, you're a super-adapter. Being organized served me really well through my childhood, in my education years. It even serves me really well now professionally and with a family and with all of that stuff but getting to a point that I recognize, it is limiting my effectiveness if I don't learn how to use my organization in conjunction with adaptability, right? Same thing with my --kind of the way I see the world. I see a reality. I see a picture of reality versus the other half of the world, like you see big picture and the attention to details and reality serves me really well but if I only pay attention to that, it limits me. And I feel like, you know, Stuart Rayfield mentioned that when she was talking about--she loves the adaptability and she sort of leading through COVID fits in her wheelhouse, like being able to shift and adjust plans every day. But she recognizes in order to lead people, she has to be able to kind of meet them where they are and speak their language and so I would just encourage our listeners, if you have not done any sort of personality assessment, find there's plenty of them online. We love the Golden personality profile you can take independently on their website, I think it's The Enneagram provides some interesting insight. The Myers-Briggs, the Disc, the--you name it. As Keith likes to say, the more the merrier but again, recognizing that we want to leverage the things that come naturally to us and also be mindful that that's not enough to get us through the end of the game with the effectiveness that we want to have.  

Keith: Where you went at the end of that is where I thought you were going to go the whole time. Everything you said, I'm just in 100% agreement with. The thing--in light of growing ourselves, right, the thing that I love about these assessments, even crummier assessments, I mean, there are some that aren't even that accurate, I think. But they-every one of them has the capacity to raise in us the question, "Am I really like that?". Right? And that self-awareness, that taking ownership of the way you're built, even if what you ultimately take ownership of is not what the test said, that's OK because it's raising--that's why I say the more the merrier. Just take them fun, they're fun. Read them. Read what kind of-- are you a golden retriever, a lion, a beaver, or an otter? What's your strengths-finder score? The Enneagram is so hot right now and I think it is tapping into something different and you know that one of the podcasts I regularly listen to is Ian Cron and Typology and I just get to hear people's stories of who they think they are inside the Enneagram and we do love the Golden and we love these things that are based in more Jungian type theory, but it only taps a portion of who we are from a personality perspective. But any of them that create the challenge in contradiction that you brought up in the first part of this episode today, challenge in contradiction, how are we putting things in front of us that contradict or that our current understanding does not make perfect sense of, these assessment tools are fantastic for that. It's a fun, proactive way to become more grounded, more mature, more self-aware in who you are. All good stuff.  

Sara: And to build on that, one thing that we love to say is that we need to let these reports refine our understanding of ourselves and not define our understanding. I think the risk is I've seen too many people get a personality report and then take that description and say, "That is who I am. Whatever this paper says, that is how I am," and even the most reliable, valid, trusted assessments are not--they're not the perfect picture of you and so to take them and take the crappy ones, as you said, and say, "That doesn't sound like me, that doesn't sound like me," that is a level of self-authorship to be able to look at something and evaluate it and one thing I love to encourage clients to do when we do personality sessions is take a report and let somebody else read it, too, and have a conversation of how they see these things show up in you and again, not to let their opinion define you, but to use it as another piece of feedback. Because I remember years ago, you know, my favorite story is there was this woman who was in one of our workshops, had gotten her Golden personality report, came up to me just despondent at a break because the report had pegged her as an extrovert and you could tell just by her body language that she that she was not your stereotypical extrovert and she just said, "My whole life, I thought I was an introvert and now I find out I'm an extrovert and I don't have an excuse to get out of this party this weekend anymore." It's like, "You are a grown woman! If you don't want to go to a party, you don't go and just because this piece of paper has an "E" on it does not change who you are. If you are not a party person, you're not a party person, and that's OK." But it was like, "Oh, OK, we need to start over." So don't be like that. Don't get over--you know, I see you with the Enneagram. "Well I'm a type one and therefore here's all the things I'm going to do and it's an excuse for my behavior," right, and that is not true. You are not your personality, you have a personality, and so making your personality work for you I think is really important.  

Keith: I love it.  

Sara: That's my personality soapbox.  

Keith: Fun conversation, Dr. Musgrove.  

Sara: Yes!  

Keith: I enjoyed this.  

Sara: I know and it has been so fun to do these first number of episodes. We've had such great guests that I'm just genuinely honored that they would come on and so openly share their stories with us and I know that in the future, we'd love to come back and do some more of these kind of challenging story conversations. We are going to shift a little bit starting in the next episode. We are going to be going a little bit deeper on specific topics of leadership, bringing in experts who have studied different dimensions of how to lead well. We are going to start with you, I'm so excited to get to interview you, you get to be in the hot seat about just your life's work on vertical development and what that looks like. We have a whole slew of guests on different topics lined up that we'll be bringing over the next several months. So with that, I just want to remind our listeners to go to our website, We have the courses, we have the Growth Gap Tool. We have all of our previous episodes. You can get the links to the, you know, wherever you're listening to this, links to the YouTube videos, all those different things and we'd love to hear from you. If you have a topic you'd love for us to cover, if you know somebody that would be great to have on the podcast, shoot us an email -- We'd love to hear from you. So with that, Keith, any closing words?  

Keith: Lean in.  

Sara: Perfect. See you next week.