Episode 26: Fuel for Growth: Responsibility
with Keith & Sara

In this episode, the third in our 'Fuel for Growth' summer series, Keith & Sara continue the conversation on moving from a position of blame to a position of responsibility.

When we allow others to define who we are, we lose sight of the things that matter to us, and we aren't able to make the difference we want to make.  Moving from an outside-in definition of who we are to an inside-out understanding is challenging, but the reward is living into your authentic self.

Episode transcript

Sara: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Growing as Grown-ups podcast. We are here together in person again for another episode, which is really fun. Today, we are going to be continuing our series on the different ways that we can fuel our growth. Before we get into today's episode, Keith, I want to make sure that people heard the announcement that was at the end of the last episode. So just in case they didn't, on Friday, August 20th, which is the Friday of the week this episode is being released and hopefully you're listening to it early, we're going to be doing a webinar to follow-up on what we talked about in the last episode about getting feedback and a really good strategy that we use that teaches people how to listen really openly, how to receive feedback called the Self on the Shelf tool.

Keith: Yeah, and it will serve people in so many ways besides just getting feedback but that's a great big one.

Sara: Yeah, absolutely and so we want to make sure you know about that. It's free. It's Friday at noon. So go to our website, -- that was a lot of alliterations -- and sign up. The Zoom link will be sent to you and we will be with you live on Friday, August 20th. So we would love to see you there. So with that, today's episode. We are going to be talking about something that we've referenced throughout other episodes but it's really kind of the heart of what we do is help people make this shift in their vertical development again, the maturity of the way they understand themselves and others in the world, where they're moving from a position of blame to a position of responsibility, a position of owning who they are and what matters to them.

Keith: From a place of allowing others to define who they are. Well, not even others, just the world, right? Just outside sources and I tell you, Sara, I've got so much passion about this. It's hard for me not to get on a roll.

Sara: Get on a roll.

Keith: But I am completing my sixth decade. That sounds bad, doesn't it?

Sara: It does makes you sound older than you really are.

Keith: Yeah, and way older than I look. I think half of my peer group -- I don't think that's an overstatement – I think half of my peer group still allows too much of what's going on to determine their well-being, how they feel about themselves, the level of confidence that they have, knowing what they should do, and it's like they're trapped. It's like they're imprisoned by what others think of them. They're imprisoned by -- you and I have talked about the weather being these things that are going on around us that we don't have much control over or even any control over, and sometimes the weather can be devastating. Like sometimes the weather can be real. It can be a hurricane that you're trying to survive your way through, but even in those circumstances, blaming these things that you don't have control over and not taking responsibility for how you're going to be in the middle of those circumstances is basically you ceding responsibility for your well-being to things outside of your control and, I tell you, where this is most heartbreaking to me is when parents I know do this with their children and it's like their children's behavior, their children's decisions are determining their well-being and what they're, in fact, doing is putting the responsibility for their happiness on a 12-year-old or a 15-year-old or an 8-year-old, right? And so this episode is really about how at the core of everything that we do -- so we talked about personality two episodes ago. We talked about feedback last episode -- all of these are great ways for us to grow, for us to own more of who we are, but the reason we're doing that is we want the scales to tip for people. We want people to move from the outside-in definition of themselves, understanding of themselves to an inside-out understanding of themselves and so this episode is just about -- man, folks, this is our job, as adults, to keep growing. This is our job.

Sara: Yeah, and I want to remind our listeners, this episode is really going to be a practical approach to what this process looks like. If you want to go deeper on what we've been talking about, kind of the way that we grow as grown-ups -- episode 16, I got to interview Keith and you went deep into the different stages of development and what you were really talking about is this level three to level four transition, this outside-in to inside-out transition. That is the work of growing as a grown-up.

Keith: That's right.

Sara: Right? And I say that because sometimes when people hear what you're describing in terms of how we're being done to by the world, it's a little bit hard to understand, but as we were talking earlier, I have teenagers that live in my house, right? Where developmentally this is the world they live in and I kind of laugh because my 15-year-old stepson cannot understand the concept of taking responsibility because everything is always somebody else's fault, right? His sister...

Keith: And that's a normal place for a 15-year-old to be, right?

Sara: Right. He punched his sister because she ate his cookie and therefore he's justified in why he did what he did and he can't take responsibility because it's always, "Well, it's her fault. Well, she did this first. She said this. She made me feel this way," and as a 15-year-old, that's kind of normal. The problem is when that carries over to the adult..

Keith: Yeah, and we get more sophisticated about it as adults, right? We try and use better vocabulary, but you can still tell -- here's the deal, is we know if we're paying any attention to ourselves, we know when we're letting something outside of us determine how we're going to see ourselves, how we're going to feel about ourselves, right? And I tell you, we have done, you know, twenty interviews in these twenty-six episodes?

Sara: Right.

Keith: We've interviewed some of the people that we admire the most as leaders and, Sara, it kills me that as we go back through these episodes with this lens on, everybody brings it up, right?

Sara: Yeah, and I think hearing them -- unprompted -- tell their stories, I think will be a fun way to see not what the 15-year-old version of this is, but of more what your friends are going through, what my friends are going through, what the people I coach are going through, where it's just -- you just feel so much pressure from the outside world that it gets to a point that it starts to overwhelm you and so you may be in a point where you feel this pressure, this "stuckness", this just overwhelm of trying to make other people happy and so let's play you three little clips of our guests. The first one is going to be from Episode 2 and oh, my gosh, this whole episode is one of my favorites. Re-listening to it today, I was just like -- if you guys haven't listened to Episode 2 with Mohamed Massaquoi, do it.

Keith: Do it.

Sara: But he'll kind of set up this situation and how he realized that was going on in his life. The second clip then we're going to transition to is from Episode 8 with C.J. C.J. talks about, again, this understanding of coming to recognize that how much of our life is spent pretending and trying to make other people happy. And then the third one we're going to play in this clip is from John Ramstead, in Episode 18.

Keith: And just because it's one of the great quotes from all the episodes.

Sara: You know, it's such a catchy phrase that I'm holding on to. So we're going to roll these clips. You're going to hear from these people's personal experiences, what this was like for them and then we'll come back to you and kind of unpack --

Keith: re we going to rattle these off in order for them? Like, they're just going to hear one to the next to the next? Sara: Yeah, let's do it. Keith: Oh, that's super cool. Yeah, let's do that.

Sara: Here we go. ---

Keith: Sara, you know what, just listening back through those quotes. It is interesting to me that it's like people's story of development, that's -- those are kind of the way they define the transition into their new level of effectiveness, right?

Sara: Yeah.

Keith: But, I mean, some of the vocabulary was so powerful -- to be an "unpaid actor". Holy smokes, I mean, Mohamed's good at rattling off phrases that just work, but if you guys didn't listen to the episode, his story is he suffered a tragedy that ended a professional football career and he moved to a place of self-authorship -- had to, really. I mean, just -- it was like, "Who am I going to be? These hands that defined my life and my career and my notoriety, I lost one of them." Right? And now --

Sara: And how easy would it be to just sit and wallow and feel sorry for yourself?

Keith: Oh, my gosh. Right, and yet to jump in with the proactivity. It's just, that man is one of my favorite people, anywhere.

Sara: Yeah. I love -- I mean, John Ramstead, the quote that we referenced at the beginning of living under the “tyranny of they", and it's like when you say that -- when he said that to me the first time there was this piece of me that so resonated with that, like, I know what it feels like and I can think back, especially in my early-20s when I first moved to Atlanta and how much pressure I felt all the time to try to fit in. Right? I was hanging out with a bunch of people in Buckhead -- it was not my crowd. I didn't dress like they dressed or go to the places they went and it was exhausting. That I think, I mean, it gets different as we get older, but even now, you know, almost 20 years after that season of my life, I still find myself thinking when I'm -- even around my family, right? Who does my mom want me, and I mean, the worst of it is we talk about this kind of sense of taking ownership of when I'm in a difficult situation, when I'm interacting with somebody that I don't always like interacting with, it's easy for me to say, "Oh, she is such a terrible person," and I have all the things that go through my head of what I want to say, what I want to do and I would be totally justified in anybody's eyes doing those things.

Keith: Right.

Sara: Right, but the point of Growing as a Grown-Up is that I am not going to give that person the power to make me do something or be someone that I don't want to be --

Keith: Yeah, and, Sara, it's so subtle, but the reason these quotes that we pulled up and put on here are so clear, so concisely and beautifully stated is because this is a place in their developmental journey where they used to be, and so they -- that's now an objective reality that they can look back on with incredible clarity, right? When we're living in the middle of it, it's way more subtle than that. It's just, you're just feeling why -- you kind of know, "Why am I letting this person bug me?" Right? Or "Why am I doing this? I don't even like to do this." Right? But it's not until you move to a place of saying, "The reason I don't like doing this is because this is the kind of person I want to be," that you have the clarity to look back and say, "Oh, my gosh, when I used to do that..." and you start using phrases like "the tyranny of they," like "being an unpaid actor." Like C.J. is talking about pretending and then it wasn't in C.J.'s quote but in another part of that interview, C.J. said, "If you keep running from yourself, you're going to kill yourself. I mean, you can."  And I stopped and I'm like, "Wait, wait, wait. If you keep running for yourself, you're going to kill yourself?" He said, "You're killing yourself. I mean, it's exhausting to be living this life that other people want you to live versus you getting grounded in who you are and then being able to see and realize who you're supposed to become.

Sara: I know. I mean, I think that phrase, again, it's exhausting.

Keith: Yeah.

Sara: Right, like, I can resonate that from seasons in my life. I remember a story you've heard me tell a number of times of a friend of mine who was way past the age where she should be caring what people think about her so much -- but she did -- and finally, one day she said, "You know what? It's just so exhausting, always trying to make everybody happy that I just have to do what I think is right," and I'm like, "Ah! We've made it!" Right? It's this, like, when you spend so much of your energy trying to read the situation around you, interpret what other people want from you, be that thing, you don't have any time off to do the things that really matter to you.

Keith: And folks, the beautiful you that you're meant to be gets lost in all that confusion but when we realize that by owning who we are, by taking ownership of the way we're built, really getting sophisticated, it's like the truest version of what you're meant to bring to any community you're in is who you now get to be and if that community rejects the truest version of you, that's not a community you need to be in.

Sara: Yeah.

Keith: Right? I mean, how long -- I think that's what C.J. means, like, you will kill yourself, right? You just keep pretending. You keep pretending you like to do this or like to do that, are going to fit in in that way when you know that's not who you are at your core. Well, how do we move to begin to take ownership of that?

Sara: I mean, that is, as you said at the beginning, that is the heart of what we do. It's what we've devoted our lives to and it is this process of learning to take ownership over who you are, which means you have to do the work to figure out who you are and some of the tools we talked about, the personality assessments, feedback from other people, but those are still outside sources that are that are easily swapped for a new outside source, a new source of identity. But you know my favorite question, right, in all of life, in all of coaching: who do you want to be?

Keith: Who do you want to be?

Sara: What story do you want to tell? And so to me, whenever I'm talking with somebody professionally and personally, that is in a phase where I can realize they're hitting that point of exhaustion, they're feeling stuck, I just ask them, "Who do you want to be?" Right? If somebody else were to be watching this situation and telling the story of what's happening right now, what's the story that you want told? What would you be proud of at the end of the day and in that situation, you can choose -- "I'm going to have a story where I'm a victim," or "I can have the story where I'm the hero who overcome the obstacles and pursues that path of becoming who I want to be," and I think people, too often, don't understand they have that choice.

Keith: Yeah and that they have all the clues in front of them that they need to move in the right direction, to move in the direction of becoming the more authentic version -- everybody wants to be the more authentic version of themselves. Like when you ask people the question, "Who do you want to be?" they don't give you, "I want to be someone who makes everybody else happy and never really knows who I am." I mean, there are people, who their whole life is centered around making people happy, right? But when you get down to what's the story you want to tell, it's like I want to be loved for who I am, not be loved because I've done all the right things for them, right? And so, you know, I know we're going to get to some more concrete steps but one of the reasons that we wanted to spend the whole episode kind of talking about this, the reason we talked about all of these different examples of ways that we fit in, all the things that we let define us, right? So often it's people that we care about or want to be connected to in some way but it can be different. It can be the cars we drive, it can be the money we make, the position that we have, the house that we live in -- all these things that if we find ourselves putting more weight on those than putting who we are in the middle of that, we're ceding our well-being -- we're ceding a part of our well-being, at least -- to that. And so as we keep talking about this, one of the things that we hope that you, the listener, see in this is that every time you find yourself going, "Oh, my gosh, I wish they wouldn't do that," or "I hate it when they do whatever," or "It really bugs me that..." or any of these subtle versions that aren't, "I'm blaming you for my well-being," because we don't say that as adults anymore, but we have all of these clues around us and as we get more sophisticated, by paying attention to them, and I think journaling is a great way to maybe process that if you don't have a great friend that you can actually open up to about this, that can help you walk this journey. You got to figure out a way to extrovert -- I think even the introverts need to figure out a way to extrovert this out, either on paper or vocally or something to say it -- but as you start paying attention to all the different ways that you allow yourself to be determined by some outside source, then your question: So who do you want to be? Who do you want to be as a parent? Who do you want to be as a spouse? Who do you want to be as a child of aging parents? Who do you want to be in the midst of the financial crisis that you might be in? Who do you want to be in the midst of not feeling valued in your career? Who do you want to be with your group of friends? Right? It's that -- that's the question. And the places where you are still allowing outside sources to have more influence than they should, you can feel those if you start paying attention to them, right? I love -- C.J. actually decided to write a book and he said the book wound up serving multiple purposes. I think he wrote it because he has a pretty remarkable story to tell but talk a little bit about what he discovered in writing the book or are we going to see just words kind of take care of this for us?

Sara: Let's let C.J. tell it, because he ends it with a really great expression of what we're talking about in terms of what came out of that process of him reflecting on who he was trying to be versus who he really was.

Keith: Okay, fantastic. So that's it. That's enough of a setup.

Sara: That's it! Here's C.J. Stewart. ---

Keith: Ok, and "Just be able to focus and experience joy," and folks, I don't know how you define joy. C.J. said earlier in a different part of the interview that joy for him is different than happiness, and I feel the same way. I've used that same phrase and have heard others talk about it and he says that happiness is contingent. It’s contingent on other things falling in line in the right way and joy is unconditional and so if you start to get your arms around that, that's really being the authentic. That's where you get to sit in that place where there is joy, right?

Sara: And, I mean, just you know how emotional and weepy I can get over some of this stuff, but thinking about, like, if what C.J. found going through this process was joy, it just reframes and re-motivates me of why I do what I do is to get people to a place where they have joy and in their life.

Keith: You know there's little tears starting to from --.

Sara: I know.

Keith: I'm going to get weepy now, you know, so that's good.

Sara: I mean, we get into values in our next lesson, but it's, like, that is what I want for people, right? I don't want them to live feeling stuck and feeling the tyranny of letting other people determine their wellbeing.

Keith: Yeah, other people, other things and so the reason we played that clip is you don't need to write a book to publish it, right? What is the journey of exploration like, as C.J. talked about, to really think through who he was being, how he was being, why he was being that way, how that morphed into who he wanted to be -- and C.J.'s book is really good, by the way. You can get it. I don't have the title of it in front of me right now, but you can look up "C.J. Stewart book" and probably pull this up on Amazon or Google and find it -- but Sara may find it before I quit talking about this -- but this idea of maybe even writing a book for you. Maybe you wind up sharing it with family at some point, but really deciding who you want to be and why you want to be that way and what it is that you bring to the table and gaining the freedom not to waste time with the ‘tyranny of they’. Becoming grounded. And experiencing joy. I mean, that's what we want.

Sara: Sign me up for that.

Keith: That's what we want and, again, any of you that are listening to this and heard me say we're paying attention at the beginning of the interview, that about half the people I know from my generation, if you're wondering if you're one of those people, you are.

Sara: You have to wonder then you have your answer --

Keith: No, but I remember when I was like that, that you're not. Right. And so, again, you know, one of the things that I love about actually owning your "three-ness", owning your "outside-in-ness". Being able to say out loud. I allow too many things outside of me to determine my happiness and well-being -- at that moment, you are more inside-out than you were the moment before you came -- before you were able to vocalize that.

Sara: Right.

Keith: Right, and that's the thing. This is not rocket science, but it is not easy. Right, and big, tough things in your life can really accelerate and facilitate your development and you've heard me say this, maybe not in the podcast, but if you've been through one of our programs, I don't know about you guys, but I don't want the whims of circumstance determining my rate of growth. I want to have a hand in it. I want to things I can do to bring what I'm supposed to bring to the table, right?

Sara: I think that's a great setup. I love that we get to -- we get to follow-up our quotes from a little bit ago with what they did about it and what you just said is what John Ramstead said that he went through as well. So let's play his other clip about how he went through this journey and what came out from the other side before we move on. Sound good?

Keith: Perfect. Here we go, John Ramstead. *** How's that, John? It's "way "good-er'".

Sara: "Good-er!" He loves that word.

Keith: Yeah, you'll have to go back and listen to the whole episode with John Ramstead to get that, but, yeah, really fun, you know?

Sara: I think just to kind of wrap the bow on the other one, we should kind of close out Mohamed's story too where he sets up this idea of taking responsibility and then part of the interview where he is talking about a situation that he found himself in when he was drafted to Cleveland. It's a great example. He doesn't know our language, I don't think, about the weather, right? But as you mentioned earlier, we use this metaphor of the weather being the things around you that can knock you over and can drown you and can burn you up and all these things if we don't take responsibility, and Mohamed tells this little excerpt of where he found himself in some bad weather and he acknowledges that he had a choice, right? He took ownership, that he had a choice to make to either given to the weather or take ownership over who he wanted to be and so we'll let him tell just this little bit of his story as we kind of continue on this episode.

Keith: Perfect. Here's Mohamed. *** All right, folks, again -- Mohamed, way to go -- and so it's really your perspective on the situation and, Sara, this goes back to the comment you were just making about the weather. He came into a franchise where everything was messed up. He talks in other parts of the interview about, you know, we've all endured COVID. There's been real storms brewing around us and there are real storms in our life that brew around us that we don't have control over those storms, but how do we get to a place where we put that on its head and say, "I'm here to create value? I was brought here to be the change," and so it's really your perspective on the situation because you know, this sounds -- he makes it sounds so simple. Again, looking back, he makes it sound simple; in real time, there's probably a lot of struggle and there's no way there wasn't. What we talk about is worry, fear, and resistance, that "What if I get hurt here? What if my what if my career -- what if they don't play me? What if I try and do this and other guys on the team are only twenty-three or twenty-four years old? What if they say, 'Who do you think you are?'" Right? It's all of this kind of stuff and we do have worry, fear, and resistance. This is why change is not easy. It's not, it's not complicated but it's not easy because there are things at risk. There are social circles at risk or possibly there's potential financial risk or career risks or things like that but it's like, how long do you want to be living in a place where you're pretending, you know?

Sara: Yeah.

Keith: And so, again, I'm almost getting to the point that I feel like we're beating a dead horse but I know that this is so real for so many people. And by the way, we've talked about this kind of move from outside and inside out is our journey as adults. It is the -- it's the overarching growth journey for us as adults. Even once you become inside-out, once you become level four, as we talked about it -- you know, buy The Map, the book that I wrote, or go back and listen to the Episode 16 that Sara referred to -- even at that point, it's becoming more inside-out in ways that you didn't even know you needed to become inside-out. So the journey for the rest of our lives is learning more and more things, things that we didn't even know we didn't know about ourselves and so, wow, I just loved all of this. I just - Dale Jones said in his interview, it's -- he said it's leaning in, right, and what does that mean, what does it mean to lean in? It means you've got to identify the thing that you're avoiding, that you're running from, that you're allowing to define you and leaning into it, saying, "What can I learn from it?" He says it's -- to use our term 'self-authoring', he said, "How do we own what we've been dealt and find a way to grow from it?" and in some cases, folks, it's, "How do we find out how to own what we've dealt ourselves?" Right? That we've allowed or created the structure around us that now we feel trapped in? And, man, I could go on a roll about that, but I won't but I've counseled a lot of people, mid-career that allowed themselves to pursue a career they had no real interest in because the money was good and now they can't take it anymore but they've got a $1200 a month car payment and on $7000 a month house payment and kids in private school and all of these things and, again, you're bumping up against the worry, fear, and resistance. So there's some balancing act to do there, but how do you lean in? How do you figure out, how do you begin to test the waters of who you're going to be? And this is maybe where we go back to Mohamed -- I'm sorry, go back to C.J. and maybe your first step is just writing down the ways you're not being who you want to be and deciding that step doesn't involve sharing that with anybody else at the beginning. Sara: Yeah. Keith: You talk a lot with people about maybe your first step is not talking to your spouse or your boss. Your first step is maybe just writing down your values and thinking about how you are and aren't living into those.

Sara: Can tell you one other practical step, that's kind of a nuance of that is an exercise I went through a number of years ago, and it was what this situation, what this kind of dilemma looks like for me, is I realized after I got married, you walked with me through this with some of it is I was, the transition from being -- How old was I when I got married? Thirty-seven and single to being a wife, a step-mom, leaving everything I knew up in north Atlanta to move to south Atlanta. I was dying, right, but it's because I realize I am not trying to make any one person happy, but I have this mental model of what a wife should be, what a mother should be.

Keith: You had constructed that?

Sara: That I had constructed, but my counselor helped me recognize the word "should". That "should" is a sign that you're being oppressed by something, that you feel like you "should" do something.

Keith: I never heard you say that.

Sara: And I was -- I'm coaching somebody right now who is very similar to me, who I notice all the time and say, "Well, I should be able to do this" or "I should do this" and "I should do this," and I have to stop them and say, "What are the things that you actually are responsible for versus the things that you think you should be doing?" and I had to write down a list of "what do I think a wife should be" vs. "what kind of wife am I really going to be?" My mom was a great -- she was always home, she always made dinner, she did all the laundry, she cleaned the house. She didn't have a full-time job.

Keith: That was her full-time job.

Sara: or a two-hour commute, you know? And I was like, "I have to let go of that," but that "should" was such a flag for me to help me figure out -- nobody was telling me. My husband was for sure not saying, "You have to cook me dinner every night." Nobody was judging me, but I had this mental "here's what I should be" from this invisible "they", telling me who I should be, right? And so that to me was a really powerful exercise that I now ask other people to do is separating out your "shoulds" from your "maybes". Right?

Keith: I also, I mean, I haven't...Since this is in real time, I haven't had a chance to think through this, but that word is a powerful word and I'm just trying to play through all the different ways that people use it and how often, when they're using it, they are talking about some construct that, you know, they've created or has been created for them outside of themselves

Sara: I mean, we joke about it in-session when we're giving people instructions on how to have developmental conversations, not to "should" on other people.

Keith: "You know what you should do..." Right.

Sara: Right. How many times -- which then is you telling me who I should be and what I should do? Right, and even then, it's a trigger but the self-imposed "shoulds" are so much subtler.

Keith: Yeah, totally.

Sara: I notice when you say it to me, I don't notice when I say to myself. So there's my little counseling tip for the day. Keith: Wow, worth the whole episode right there. How are we going to close this thing out?

Sara: I mean, I think I love this other quote from Karl that I don't -- we don't need to play the clip, but he just sums it up beautifully and he says, "We know that the most effective leaders -- "

Keith: This is really good.

Sara: And again, leaders, for us, are not people in positions of authority, but people who want to have influence.

Keith: They can be.

Sara: Which they can be.

Keith: Right.

Sara: But it is any person -- because I know there's a lot of listeners to our podcast who --

Keith: Don't have a leadership role in an organization anywhere.

Sara: They don't even have professional jobs. They lead in community. They lead in nonprofits. They lead in their families. So just again, to make that point, the most effective leaders, the most mature leaders take more rather than less responsibility for the things around them and so my question to myself, a question to our listeners, "What is an area in life that you can take more responsibility for, not in the sense of 'should-ing' and taking on things that you don't need to, but in terms of who you want to be, how you want to be?" Because if you are not taking responsibility for it, going back to what, I think, John Ramstead said is the recognition that not taking responsibility means that the circumstances have control over you, right, and I don't want to give anybody else that power to determine who I'm going to be, right? Outside of my faith, I'm the only one who gets to determine who I want to be, and so to me, just that question of "are we moving in a direction of taking more responsibility, of not being victims of our weather, not feeling trapped by our circumstances, but moving to a place of groundedness that leads to joy and influence?"

Keith: Hope you guys enjoyed this episode. I enjoyed talking about it.

Sara: know. It was fun. I mean, this is the heart of what we love to do and I think our next episode that will be coming out again in two weeks, is going to fit so nicely with this because the way that you take ownership is by really getting grounded in your values and what kind of legacy you want to leave, which is what we're going to be talking about next week, which is another super fun topic. But again, just to remind you of the resources that are out there, the Self on the Shelf webinar, the Self on the Shelf handout is going to be on the website ongoing. So you can get that any time. We still have the Growth Gap Tool there on the website, which is a great tool, again, to help you take ownership of your growth. The Challenge to Change course, which is a six-module course to walk you through this process, we've made that really affordable for you on our website. Like, we are doing this because this is what we want for people is we want them to move to this place of groundedness and joy in owning who they are and being proud of who they are.

Keith: And then as Karl said, it'll change your effectiveness with the people that you care and have influence with the most. Enjoyed being with you guys. We will see you on the next episode.

Sara: Take care.